From: New Liberation News Service Subject: Interview with EZLN Sub-Commandante Marcos Interview with Sub-Commandante Marcos of the Ejercito Zapatista Revolucion de Nationale (EZLN)=A9 by Robert Ovetz independent journalist San Cristobal [rightward slash over the 'o'] de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico January 1, 1994 *Pauses or interrruptions indicated by "...." No editing or grammatical changes have been made whatsoever. Corrections are warmly welcomed. NOTE: THIS INTERVIEW IS COPYRIGHTED AND MAY NOT BE REPRINTED WITHOUT PERMISSION OF ROBERT OVETZ. I KNOW THIS IS IDIOTIC BUT A COUPLE BIG MONEYMAKING MEDIA OPERATIONS HAVE ALREADY TRIED TO USE THIS WITHOUT PAYING OR GIVING CREDIT. PERMISSION CAN EASILY BE ARRANGED BY CONTACTING ME BY EMAIL [SOUND@UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU], PHONE [512-477-1249], OR IN WRITING [ROBERT OVETZ, P.O. BOX 49814, AUSTIN, TEXAS 78765, USA]. AUDIO VERSIONS ARE ALSO AVAILABLE. IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO MAKE MONEY BY PRINTING THIS-REPRINT AT WILL (AND SEND ME A COPY PLEASE). Robert Ovetz: Is this the start of an armed struggle against Mexico? Sub-Commandante Marcos: Yes. O: ...throughout the whole country or just in this region? M: In all the country. It is the beginning. O: Today is the start? M: Yes. Of the revolution of the whole country against the government of [President Carlos] Salinas de Gortari. We begin today in four cities. O: What are the other cities. M: Altamirano, Ocosingo, Margaritas, San Cristobal. O: Those other cities, are they in the mountains? M: Ocosingo is in the jungle of Lacondonia. [Lacondonia has rightward slash over last 'o'] Margaritas near the jungle of Lacondonia. And Altamirano is near here...40 kilometers. These are the cities near the mountains. O: So it has a strategic importance. M: Yes. It naturally surrounds the cities. O: What would happen if the Army comes in here. I saw planes flying around here earlier but they're gone now. It won't be easy for them to come in here. M: We don't think they'll do that because there are many people-civilians. O: A lot of Americans...and I'm sure the US military... M: ...but the Indians can die but the Americans the Europeans-oh no. But the Indians, they die. O: I don't read Spanish hardly at all, so could you tell me what the demands are and the FZLN [actually, the EZLN]. M: The declaration of war? O: Yes. M: They say that they began this struggle-armed struggle-with the maximum law of Mexico-the constitution. There is an article that says the people have the right to change his government anytime, anyplace, any kind. O: Let's hope this spreads to the United States. M: This is the 39 of the constitution that says we don't want anymore this government so we have the right to change it because the pacifist doesn't have the solution. O: Like the Cardenas election. M: Of course. O: They just use fraud... M: It's worse with the election of [PRI presidential candidate Luis Donald] Colosio. O: Who's that? M: Colosio is the candidate of the PRI. O: Oh, the new candidate. M: The new candidate. Then there is no liberty, no democracy here in Mexico...for the indians it's worse. O: It's very likely the US military could get involved in Mexico trying to fight you, they've done it many many times. M: I don't thinks so clearly. In past years there was Soviet Union, Cuba went [unclear]. But today can the American people say there is a stranger's invasion across the border. Of what? Martians? There is no more Soviets. The Cubans is against the world. Then they must understand it is struggle of Mexicans and respect and don't interfere with us. The demands is not against the United States. The demands are for respect of the constitution, repart of land, house, milk, health, education, independence. O: Do you seek the overthrow of the Mexican government? M: What? O: Do you seek a new government. M: Yes. O: Who would be the new government or how would it come about? M: We seek that the government would be denied. O: Be abolished? M: Then the people must make a government of transition. This government of transition calls a new election in terms of liberty and democracy. O: How would the government of transition be chosen or who would be the new government? M: That way is called the [unclear] deny Salinas de Gortari. A lot of parties make a new government of transition. This government...the principle job is to convoke elections with freedom with liberty for everybody. Then we want...I don't know. But the chances must equal. Not right now, the chances is more for PRI and less for the other parties and less... worse for the indians and the minorities of this country. O: Is the FZLN [EZLN], does it come out of existing organizations. M: No, god save us. God save us. No. No. It's different. No. This moment it was born in the mountains. O: So it is mostly indigenous people that belong to the group. M: Yes. It is majority in Chiapas. But in other states of the country there is other composition. But here in Chiapas it is Tzeltal, Tzotzil, Zoque, Chocivalis, Sokema [unclear]. O: So do you consider San Cristobal a liberated zone now? M: No. No. No. It is only a call of attention. O: A what? M: Call of attention for everybody in the country and the world that the indians have the dignity of raise his head. Am I right? El libertad cabeza...to raise his head with dignity. O: Oh, to raise his head with dignity. M: Yes, I don't know if it right, my english. O: It's alright. Who are you? M: I am a soldier. O: You're just one of... M: Soldier. Sub-commander of this force. There are captians, majors, lieutenants, lt.-colonels. O: Who...is there a general I guess or commander. M: The maximum commander is the collective of the people that is right there [pointing to EZLN members occupying municipal building]. O: Oh, at that building. M: Uh huh, it's a group of people, a collective in a sense. O: Is each of the groups...each of the four groups that have acted today...are they all independent or are they linked somehow or... M: They have an accord. O: An accord? M: Yes. Tzotzil. Tzeltal. Chocovachis [unclear]. O: In recent decades when armed struggle has taken place like in El Salvador or Nicaragua there have been movements in North America for example to support those armed struggles. What can people from the United States, where I'm from do to support you. M: The NAFTA! The NAFTA of the revolution! The principle people of the American is the...that you call the chicanos. There are many people of Mexico there. There are another Mexico in Los Angles, San Diego and so forth. O: The whole Southwest. M: Yes. Then we tell they...there... O: Them? M: Them. That remember all the oppression, all exploitation, all the humiliation that they suffer here in Mexico. And that situation forces them to go to the United States. I think that people would be more happy if they have his level of life that have in the United States but in Mexico-his land with his people with his family with history. They must sow this movement with sympathy...sympathy...I don't know how to say it. With sympathy. They don't want it to rape women to kill white mens, white skins. You know what I mean. [touching my shoulder]. O: Yeah, I don't know what they mean. M: What they want is they want land because they don't have land. All the people, Indians here they don't have land. So how can they live? O: And with NAFTA the people that do have land will end up losing it very quickly. M: Forget it. Forget it. With NAFTA the death of the people is just like the bombs that have airplane which have...[gesturing to the military jets circling overhead]. So if NAFTA begin in first of January of 94 and the death of these people begin this day why don't...why not begin the liberation of these people right this day. So they decided, just begin, do it. O: Who do you take inspiration from? M: Zapata. O: Zapata. M: Zapata. Emiliano Zapata was a farmer?...um, little farmer...or um pisant.= .. O: Peasant? M: ...peasant...that raised his struggle, can back his community like these people, and says I want this now...I want this now...I want this now...so he take the arm. O: So this is kind of the unfinished...continuing the unfinished revolution of Zapata. M: Yes. Not only the unfinished but counterrevolution with the reforms of the article eh 27 of the constitution... O: ...What is that? M: ...with Carlos de Gortari. In the past, eh they are land for uh give to the peasant with solicited...I don't know... O: With what? M: With want...we want land.. O: Oh the redistribution of land. M: But now no, there is no more land. The land sent [unclear] Only if we put another stage in the country says Salinas de Gortari. But we know there are more territorientes... O: Territories? M: Terrateniente. Great possessor of land. O: Oh yeah...that a few have a lot of the land. M: Yes. And the lot of people have a few land and land with bad conditions for live, of health, of productions, of commercializations...commercialization. The late stage of the human being they are the indian people in Chiapas. There are the rich men in Mexico, the medium men in Mexico, the poor men in Mexico, the very poor men in Mexico and at last but not least the Indian Mexico. Worst, worse as you can be. O: It's like that in every country that has indigenous people. M: Yes. And in every state of this country. Not only Chiapas-Tabasco, Veracruz, Oaxaca, Chihuahua, Puebla. There are many people indian. I think that they so...they began to think. And they began to make a lot of things like this and even better. O: Among the leaders of the FZLN [EZLN] how many indigenous people are there...is it led by indigenous. M: E. Z. L. N. National Liberation Zapatist Army. Because you said Fronte Sandinista Liberacion Nationale. O: Oh, sorry. M: No FSLN is dead. This is the National Liberation Zapatist Army. The indian people in the sudwest, sudest of Mexico is indian in majority. O: Is what? M: Indian. O: The organization? M: No, the direction. O: Oh, the leaders. M: The leaders are Indians in sudest. In other parts of the country I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, what is it... But here it is the composition class of origin of these Indians...Tzotzil of the altos of Chiapas, Tzeltal of Margaritas las principales...the principale Indians of his states have representation in the common leaderships of this army but we think there are more kinds of struggle not only the struggle with arms. There are other kinds that is good. O: What are those other kinds? M: Uh, like a...manifestation...I don't know how to say... O: Manifestation? What does that mean. M: Like this but without arms. Man in crowd: Demonstration. M: Demonstration. Mobilization. But without arms. To demand the government to make his petitions or respond to his petitions. But in some cases it is not possible. There is necessary more step and that step is today make the indian majority in this state and the right possessors of this land. How do you say...antes...before...that this country spelled Mexico...this country his land... O: For thousands of years. M: Yes. They here's is my land, I must be the owner and the senior, the master. But not over other people like his master the white skin. I must be the master of my country with [emphasized] my people not over [emphasized] my people...with them. That is the think that they have. And if you have one chance to learn Tzotzil, Tzeltal, Chocavotzil [unclear] and began to talk with them do...you will discover a great philosophy of humanity in these people even with a knife in his hand. O: Even with what? M: With a knife in his hand. Like today. No people is dead. No woman is...no white woman is raped. But if the federal army make this there are of lot of women of indian rape...of death... O: Like in Guatemala... M: Right. But this is the army. I think this is...this army is better for the people because they... O: Do you consider this an army? M: Oh, of course, of course. I hopes. O: How many people are there do you think? M: Here or..? O: ...all together, acting today? M: Acting today? Here? O: No, in all the four locations. M: No, I can't say. O: Oh, you don't know. M: But I can say today here, a thousand. O: A thousand...there is only about a hundred here...so are there more out around the area? M: Do you look the airplanes [pointing up at the circling jets]? O: I saw the airplanes, yeah. M: OK. Go down, they go down right in the...eh the exit to Comitan, exit to Tuxtla. There is a lot of people right there. O: Part of the organization? M: Here is the people that is the protection of the government of liberation...how do you say it....these people... O: So there has been fighting then in the mountains today? M: No. No. Only block the streets and the highway. O: Yeah, because we can't....nobody can get out of the city right now. M: Nobody. [A few Mexican journalists begin to ask questions in Spanish at the end of which he identified himself as "Sub-Commandante Marcos"].